## Intro [00:00] funniest thing is this one of the technical person who does all the work is the one actually reading the analytics and like hey like this our launch bombed what's the plan in the don't worry about it this is like you need to be quiet this is my department you know stop asking [Music] questions all right this is Dalton plus Michael and today we're going to talk about how to not get screwed as a software engineer interesting yeah tips you know ## Who's Exploited? [00:29] we've we've noticed that a lot of the of technical folks sometimes get exploited they kind of get ripped off by other folks evil business people yeah it's kind of a bad pattern and so we're gonna we're going to talk about it so who is this aimed at Michael who is this video for the the folks we're talking to so we're talking to maybe you're a technical co-founder at a startup right now um maybe you are a great engineer at a scaling up company the guy that everyone comes to the person who y always gets fixed the woman who's always up late getting those text messages and having to yeah or or you're at a really early stage startup yes but you're not a Founder a co-founder you're like a lead engineer or head of engineering or there's some title yes and the whole company is like three people yeah but you're not a Founder you're not a Founder okay there is the college student who all the mbas go to to build their prototype yep um um and then there's the googler right how did you describe it it's the person that does the work that other people take credit for yes to get promoted promoted in bonuses yes it's the person that does the you know actually producing the products that a lot of people stick their career on yes yes yes yes so that's who we're talking yeah so I think the thing that we're trying to really help you with is yeah we feel bad for you so so this this comes up a lot um for us at YC where we read a lot of applications and we interview a lot of companies and we see folks where it's pretty clear what's going on we can see it a mile away in the application that someone is getting exploited or ripped off and it's usually the technical person yes right and it feels bad to see just all of these applications come in yes and it's Crystal Clear what's going on yes and so this is for you yes we would like to give you some questions to ask yourself to figure out whether you're being treated well or not and I think that to be clear we don't want to presuppose right there are a lot of people who are in great situations um we just want to give you some tools so let's talk about Equity um ## Fair Equity [02:40] what are the questions people should ask themselves about whether they have enough equity Equity at all this comes up a lot I know you a big proponent of this Michael but in general something like equal Equity is pretty common um for startups that apply to to YC and is something we recommend and sort of the anti- pattern we might see is say there's two Founders and the non-technical business founder has 90% And the technical person has 10% or less and the explanation is basically just that the business founder had sharper elbow negotiate it was a better nego like there's actually no justification for this it was my idea yeah okay right and so there's really no good reason it's just that the business guy gets more for whatever case yes and usually in those situations you endend up with something much closer to even again you give this advice how how do you explain this when this happens I I always just think that like the vast majority of the journey is ahead of you not behind you and you want your co-founders to feel like owners and partners Y and I always think about you know in the early days of our company on Sunday night when the website went down I couldn't fix it and so we're going to live in one of two worlds the world where I get text and I have to like cajo people to fix it or the world where everyone feels like an owner and they get text and they wake up and they fix it right and I think a lot of people just don't understand that if you can make people inherently motivated they'll do far better work than if you yell at them so that's the that's the that's the the founder you know do you have close to equal Equity yeah what does your Equity look like and does it make sense like is the justification for whatever your Equity is does it make sense to you based on what you bring to the T and based on your actual responsibilities now what about the ## The Early Employee [04:33] early employee well the early employee notoriously kind of gets hosed on this stuff especially if they're providing the work of an equal technical co-founder yet they get 1% or less of the company again this is very common where you'll have two business Founders three business Founders you know yes and then they'll have someone that's you know lead engineer that is effectively technical co-founder technical co-founder and they get like 1% not great yes not great that's not a good pattern um I would say if you're in the scaleup and you are the essential engineer the test I would kind of ask myself is is if this thing works are you going to make a life-changing amount of money and you know I would argue that like you know that doesn't mean you necessarily should have as much Equity as the founders or you're going to have as much Equity as someone who came in early but it does mean that like if this thing actually IPOs or gets bought and you get like p on the back and like you know a nice Christmas bonus probably you're not in the right situation yeah all right that next group ## The Googler [05:38] um the googler I think this one's actually much more interesting because I would argue that if you're the googler you're getting a bad deal if you're doing like a 100h hour weeks and grinding yep and like your boss or your boss's boss is getting like Mega vacation and $10 million a year packages and like promotions and da D I would say on the flip side though like if you got good work life balance and yeah I think it's risk award this is a subtle point that Michael's making I think it's for the opportunity cost that you're taking to not do something else yes are you getting a square deal versus if again if you're working really really really hard perhaps another thing would be better yes but if you're if you're very happy with the trade you're making on work life balance compensation hey man maybe good yeah it could be great for you yeah ## The College Student [06:33] you know and then I guess you know last but not least is the college student who like in most cases even isn't even offered Equity like that's like you know they're just they're just the typer you're the intern yeah you're our technical intern just do all of the work do the thing we're just the idea guys yes yes so Equity is one set of topics ## A Seat at the Table [06:52] you can ask yourself in these roles another one and one that you brought up was kind of decision-making pro pro process like okay we've established that you are doing a lot of the work yeah it's basically do you have a seat at the table and so again if you're trying to self- diagnose am I being exploited um as an engineer as a technical person is the whole point that the business people have a lot of meetings that you're not invited to and all decisions about everything are made by the business people and you are basically used as a robot to write code yes probably not a great sign probably a sign that you are you might be being exploited right you're being used as um yes like a machine to write code and not a person with a brain I think the the next thing ## Effort Imbalance [07:38] you should be thinking about is kind of effort level you know are you working these crazy hours but everyone's on vacation in Aruba half the time right are your counterparts who are doing fundraising and sales and HR and all the other tasks within the company are they grinding or are they not yep like this is a self- diagnosis thing but but it's really sad when you see someone in the world of technical co-founder and they really have to work their butt off and they're really showing up every day yes and the idea guy or the salesperson or the business Expert the fundraising expert yeah actually isn't doing much sometimes they're part-time sometimes they're part you and man that is such a vector for being exploited and so you should really feel from a self- diagnosis perspective that yeah counterparts are just as into it and there's just as much heart that they're bringing to the table as you are and if so again maybe you're maybe it's a great deal for you yeah um I think that the ## Is This Working? [08:40] the last two are kind of connected this kind of like is it working SL opportunity cost right like one would argue that like um you because you're doing all this work have an amazing ability to judge whether the company's working yep and um you should maybe trust your instincts there Y and you know is it working right like you might be exploited if you're being asked to do all this stuff and like the evidence is painfully obvious it's not working well and you're the technical person so you notice the first the funniest thing is this one of the technical person who does all the work is the one actually reading the analytics like hey like this our launch bombed what's the plan and The Bu don't worry about it this is like you need to be quiet this is my department you know stop asking questions and so so if it just seems like you're bringing your aame effort and doing all of the work yes and it's definitely not working yes probably might be a sign you're being exploited well and this is even more of the case that the opportunity cost might not be worth it yep or you might be not leaving because you're afraid but you know intellectually this thing isn't working yep all right so and like don't let them finesse you again this is the the the same person that convinced you that you getting you know one tenth of their Equity is a great deal for you is the ones like hey I know it looks like we're not growing and we have no revenue and we're about to run out of money but I got this fine like don't let that same swaave person keep doing the same move on you over and over again yeah it's it's weird because I never Ed the term gaslighting but it is G it's actually gaslighting it's actually that okay so I don't want to paint too bad of a picture because on the flip side we see situations that are great yeah more often than not you know the folks we F yeah the folks we fund it's mostly like a really awesome trade ## Getting a Good Deal [10:36] so let's talk about situations where like things are going well right like you signs that this is great I think one sign is from an opportunity cost perspective you realize that you're at the best possible place in the world for the risk reward ratio yes and whether however you're being comped yes you're like wow I'm getting a smoking deal and I know there's no better deal I can be doing doing and I proud I feel privileged to be working on this team I am because they care just as much like if everyone feels like they're getting a great deal that's a sign of a good culture yeah I also think if you feel like you're being given a lot of responsibility you have a lot of opportunity to learn yep I think most people don't realize that like you can learn at a startup Pace or you can learn at a Google pace and like I startup is an amazing opportunity to learn so if you're getting better faster than your peers who are in big Tech you might be getting a really good deal um especially we see this a lot with people who learn a ton and then they go start their own company yep and it's like well that startup was incredible for you even if it didn't work get rich from it that was like the best education you could have ever gotten and we see this also with immigration like sometimes that startup or that company is getting you to the country you want to be in or getting you the Visa like it's great deal that might be getting you a great deal so that's like a really really big thing um I also think there's ## Part of the Problem [11:55] this element of like you're not exploited if you're part of the problem yes again this is a subtle Point let's see if we can explain it it's basically if it's not working and you have a seat at the table it's on you man yes yes like you can't just blame hey business guy you're not pulling your weight because no one wants our thing but if you have a seene at the table you're if you have equal Equity with someone and you have a seat at the table in decision making just because it's not working doesn't mean you get the right to blame other people no that's not cool you know and I think the last one that I ## You Were Warned [12:31] will say is like um and this is a slightly dangerous one but like when people are honest with you and it turns out to be that way when people are like this is going to be the hardest job you've ever done and then it turns out that you're working like crazy like when the team you're coming into is extremely upfront with you about how it's going to be and it turns out that way and it's not good it's not necessarily you're being exploited like you made that choice yeah you chose that that's a really great Point man like think about um expectation setting when you take any job yes or when you go to school yes the people the the great professors or teachers or bosses it's not that they tell you it's going to be easy it's that they tell you what's going to happen yes and they're right they're honest and and you're like wow I really respect that you set my expectations well and I knew what I was walking into and so again you're if someone did an A+ job of expectation setting you can't really hold you can't argue that they're exploiting you or that this is like not what you signed up for no right no all right so I suspect ## How Do I Fix This? [13:35] I'm in a bad situation what do I do to fix it if you think you might be in a bad situation I would look at what are the other opport opportunities that you're taking an opportunity cost from doing so for instance if you're at the big tech company and other people are getting tons of promotions because if you're at work you probably are pretty well undervalued and you could be learning more and so I would explore starting your own company or going to working somewhere else y if you really want that seat at the table my guess is you could find a job where you have way more a seat at the table when you're doing decision- making well I I'll say a step you could do even before that you can ask for a seat at the table that's true I remember there was this great employee at at uh Justin TV this guy named Tim and he was disgruntled because the company wasn't doing well and as disgruntled as he was he actually would do the work to come up with ideas and to point out things that were wrong and to create fixes and like he took ownership and what was interesting is that as he took ownership he was given ownership so it wasn't this weird it wasn't like oh like you're not at the table it's like come up with the smart ideas maybe maybe you do have a maybe you are at the table and you're just not participating y or taking responsibility that's a great point and we see this with Equity splits because often sometimes it'll just be hey have you all thought about maybe like or how did you come up with the equity split like well it's you know 9010 well why well it's my idea well you know most of the work is ahead of you not behind you what if you went like equal people are like okay yeah fine it's actually not that hard to fix the stuff sometimes shockingly it's just they've never had the conversation exactly they almost expected the business person to do right by them or like gave up their like agency all and it's like no you have agency like and then I'll say you know another thing is location like sometimes you're in a place where your work is invalu yep and there are other places where your work could be valued more whether that's geographic location company that's a great Point um and I think the last one that I observe a lot is that sometimes you have to take a step backwards to take two steps forward so like maybe you're stuck in a bad job and like you have a lot of responsibility but you're not being given good compensation ation you might have to go switch jobs into a place where you have less opportunity less less responsibility but better compensation you can develop a better Network um maybe you have to move maybe you have to take risks yeah like like maybe you have to do something that doesn't feel like you have the perfect next thing on your resume because it sets you up two day two moves down the line right I think sometimes people are like look at their careers very linearly instead of saying like it's the end that matter right it's like can I retire raise my kids D and like maybe the path to get there isn't just this linear step by step so anyways what would be your ## Know Your Value [16:35] last parting piece of advice for someone Su spe in this world look technical people know your worth and if you're a really nice person those are the people that tend to get ripped off the most follow our handy checklist and find a place where you're appreciated and valued the way you should be because because you have this amazing rare skill and for those business people listening to this don't exploit folks be honest be upfront right like make decisions that they're going to that your people you work with are going to be excited about today but also tomorrow cuz like if that amazing Tech person leaves your company you're all right d great jat thanks [Music] [Music]